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neck inserts (again)
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15256		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:20 am ]
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I am now thinking of using the neck inserts (flush heel-no tenon,1/2" dowel inserted in heel)for my next guitar.
I have looked through the archives and from what I can tell people are buying them at the local hardware store.
I have heard a few horror stories of them pulling out and just wnt to make triple sure that I am using the best ones available.
I have no problem buying them from LMI if they are the "right" ones.
Signed,
Nervous in Brewster
Author:  SniderMike [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:35 am ]
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Brad, I've used the LMI ones one time, and they worked just fine.
McFeely's also have a great variety of inserts. They have some stainless
steel ones with very small outer threads that are great for hard maple.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:06 pm ]
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Thanks,Mike
Author:  Brad Way [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:03 pm ]
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Brad...you mentioned you are constructing a "Flush heel-no tenon" type neck. I have been thinking about this for a while. What are the pro's & con's to this type of construction method?
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:24 pm ]
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Brad,
One advantage of having no tenon is it is easier to construct/adjust.
The only advantage I can see of having a tenon is there is more "meat" at the heel.
Both joints still depend on the same strength of the inserts not pulling out.
Author:  Bill Greene [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:30 pm ]
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If I'm not mistaken, Grumpy does this and has been an advocate of it for sometime. You might ping him and see if he'll discuss it. I'd like to hear myself.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:31 pm ]
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Grumpy? Any Suggestions?
Author:  KenH [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:05 pm ]
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I have switched over to the no tenon neck heel about 7 or 8 guitars ago. It is MUCh easier to work on the neck angles without the tenon in the way.


As far as the inserts, I use brass inserts that I bought from lowes. They have worked out fine for me so far. The ones I am afraid of are the "pot metal" ones with the segmented outer edges. While these may be ok, I just dont like them.
Author:  James Orr [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:14 pm ]
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I've decided that I'd like to be able to build a complete guitar, which
means being able to build a neck and bridge. This isn't a value statement
about those who don't build their own necks and bridges, but it's a skill
I'd like to say I have.

Just yesterday I was wondering how you drill holes in the neck and heel
block that are perfectly aligned and also perfectly squared. Clearly you
would connect the neck to the heel block to get aligned holes, but how do
you go about holding the two square to the drill? If you go with a
tenonless neck, how would you fasten it to the heel block while drilled the
holes so that they're aligned?
Author:  KenH [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:35 pm ]
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Someone asked me a while back about how I went about lining up the holes so that the bolt lined up with the insert. It is as simple as making yourself a simple T-square, complete with a center line and the holes pre-drilled in the jig. I think the pictures are self explanitory. I made this out of some scrap pieces of lexan and it works perfectly every time as long as you keep the center lines lined up.





 WHile these pictures just show the neck, you can reverse it and drill the holes for the body of the guitar with the same jig. It is one of the last things I do before I set the neck.
Author:  grumpy [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:43 pm ]
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I gave up on inserts a few years ago, and now use hanger bolts instead, ala Collings. Just yor standard hardware store, 1/4" hanger bolt. The ones with a wood thread at one end, and a thread to accept a regular nut at the other. I then use flanged nuts, so no washer is needed.

Only requires a 3/16" hole in the heel, so it leaves a lot more wood in there; the inerts would cut away 75% of the 1/2" dowel.... and they're plenty, plenty strong.
Author:  James Orr [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:48 pm ]
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That's great, Ken. Thanks for posting the images! How do you hold the
neck to make sure the holes are squared?
Author:  KenH [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:10 pm ]
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I usually hold the neck in a soft jawed vise when drilling it. Getting it square isnt the real problem..... drilling deep enough to accomodate the insert without driliing completely through the heel is the real challenge
Author:  Todd Rose [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:28 pm ]
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[QUOTE=grumpy] I gave up on inserts a few years ago, and now use hanger bolts instead, ala Collings. Just yor standard hardware store, 1/4" hanger bolt. The ones with a wood thread at one end, and a thread to accept a regular nut at the other. I then use flanged nuts, so no washer is needed.Only requires a 3/16" hole in the heel, so it leaves a lot more wood in there; the inerts would cut away 75% of the 1/2" dowel.... and they're plenty, plenty strong. <div style=": ; width: 28px; height: 28px; : 1000; display: none;">[/QUOTE]

Mario, do you put a dowel in your heel?
Author:  mgcain [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:39 am ]
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Wow...No tenon?  In a world like this where so much deference is made to tradition, aren't you concerned that some will see this as a possible quality issue?  Or perhaps consider it "production line" made? 


I have no problem with the strength of the joint, but I'd wager that it could be compared someone using a biscuit joiner or a festool domino on a queen anne lowboy...nothing wrong with the joint, but...not "traditional"


Don't want to start  war so don't flame me, just thinking out loud...you can bet tenonless is something I'll try...but I put up with a lot of crap for thinking outside the box on joinery at the woodworking school I teach at - this feels like that...


Mitch
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:31 am ]
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[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

Someone asked me a while back about how I went about lining up the holes so that the bolt lined up with the insert. It is as simple as making yourself a simple T-square, complete with a center line and the holes pre-drilled in the jig. I think the pictures are self explanitory. I made this out of some scrap pieces of lexan and it works perfectly every time as long as you keep the center lines lined up.


 




 WHile these pictures just show the neck, you can reverse it and drill the holes for the body of the guitar with the same jig. It is one of the last things I do before I set the neck.


[/QUOTE]


Ken, This idea is good, but consider the following. The plexi isn't thick enough to ensure square drilling with a hand held drill. Also, the plexi will wear out. Make the plexi at least 1/2" thick. Using a drill press, drill holes and insert proper drill bushings into the jig. This will enable square drilling and jig longevity
Author:  grumpy [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:47 am ]
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Yes, a dowel.

Mitch, there are millions of guitars made this way, including every Taylor and other well respected brands. Bolt-on necks became well accepted a long time ago....
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:48 am ]
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Mitch,
Those days are over. Some of the best most respected luthiers (some command prices of over $10,000.!)are using this type of joint,unless you are buying a "true" reproduction of a particular style of guitar.
I bet if you asked many players what type of neck joint (or finish,or type of bracewood,etc.etc.)on their guitar they wouldn't know -or care-they are putting their trust in the guitarmaker they chose.
They are concerned with how it plays,looks and sounds.

Ken,
I am drilling the holes while the neck is still square,so I can clamp it to the drill press table(my table tilts vertically).
I use a transfer punch to tranfer the previously drilled hole locations from the headblock to the neck blank.

Terry,
I agree with you about the inserts if you are using a jig like Kens. Mario has a great picture of this on his website.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:50 am ]
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I was typing at the same time as Mario..
Author:  grumpy [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:52 am ]
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I was typing at the same time as Mario..

parish the thought....
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:22 am ]
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[QUOTE=grumpy] Yes, a dowel.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Mario. If you don't mind filling in a few details... what diameter of dowel do you use? Does it extend the full length of the heel, from the underside of the fretboard to the heel cap? Is it glued in place along its entire length, or do you do anything tricky to allow for wood movement differential between the dowel and the heel? What glue do you use when installing the dowel? Do you concern yourself with orienting the growth rings of the dowel in a particular direction relative to the heel? Do you install the dowel only when the moon is in a particular phase?   
Author:  erikbojerik [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:33 am ]
Post subject: 
OK....I may be missing something here...having exactly one bolt-on
acoustic neck on my resume (Cumpiano-style with tenon and cross dowels).



How do you guys leave enough "slop" in the system to permit you to make
small changes to the neck angle?  If you have perfectly square and
tight alignment of bolts in their holes, and you try to change the neck
angle....stuff won't fit anymore.



What do you do, leave the holes in the neck block a little large
compared with the bolt diameter?  This is what I ended up doing
with my own joint, but if this was the wrong way to go I'd like to know.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:23 am ]
Post subject: 
I use the deep threaded steel inserts from Mc feeleys!
Never had a problem with them!
I do not dowel the heel-and use allen head screws from the local hardware.
These buggars if inserted correctly will hold hundreds of pounds on pull!
BUY the corrcet driver for them-camfer the hole(so as not to pull out the wood)
Use moderate to firm pressure to drive them-I use a 10mm hole
good luck!
mc
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks,Mike!
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:06 am ]
Post subject: 
since when did bolt on necks become traditional, tenon or no???

bolt-on butt joints have been fairly common since the 70's thanks to bob taylor and a few others, with the bolted straight mortise and tenon not long after, but its a bit of a stretch to call either traditional.
 
the traditional neck joint is the dovetail mortise and tenon, and yes, when bob taylor started using a bolted butt joint in the 70's there were traditionalists who scoffed. tens of thousands of guitars later bolt on necks have become so accepted that many of the foremost custom builders in the world use the technology.
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